February 25, 2021 / sucity / Comments Off on SUSAN’S INTERVIEW: ‘Son of the South’ Writer/Director Barry Alexander Brown
Susan Kouguell speaks with ‘Son of the South’ Writer, Director and Editor Barry Alexander Brown about the film that was twelve years in the making, the adaptation process, and how his background as an editor informed his work as a screenwriter.
(L to R) Sharonne Lanier and Lucas Till in a scene from SON OF THE SOUTH, Courtesy Vertical Entertainment
Executive produced by his longtime friend and colleague Spike Lee, Son of the South is based on civil rights activist Bob Zellner and his autobiography, “The Wrong Side of Murder Creek”. The film follows Bob Zellner, a Klansman’s grandson, who must choose which side of history to be on during the Civil Rights Movement. Defying his family and white Southern norms, Zellner fought against social injustice, repression, and violence to change the world around him.
This film, which was twelve years in the making and is dedicated to the late civil rights icon John Lewis, takes place in Alexander’s hometown of Montgomery, Alabama where the real-life events occurred.
As a young director, Brown was nominated for an Oscar for his first film, a feature-length documentary about the rise of the anti-Vietnam War Movement titled, The War at Home. He edited numerous Spike Lee films, including Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X, Inside Man, and BlacKkKlansman for which Lee won a best-adapted screenplay Oscar and Brown was nominated for best editor. Brown has worked with Mira Nair on the Oscar-nominated Salaam Bombay!, Madonna, In Bed With Madonna, Adrien Brody on Clean, and Tony Kaye’s Detachment. Brown was recently honored at UNESCO and AFI’s World Peace Initiative Awards. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award and their World Peace & Tolerance Narrative Feature Film Award for Son of The South.
Barry Alexander Brown
Mr. Brown describes his relationship with Bob Zellner as: “We were both liberal white boys from Alabama and we easily got along.”
Susan Kouguell: Tell me about the adaptation process.
Barry Alexander Brown: The first thing I gravitated towards was that The Wrong Side of Murder Creek should be a movie, but the scope was way too big for one film. I wasn’t interested in doing a movie that quickly skips through history. I was writing the script around the same time Bob was writing his book. So much of what I wrote was more based on lots of my conversations with him.
It took me almost two decades to tell his story in a concise way that would convey the importance of what he did and who he was. It took me forever to decide which part of this story that I can take that will make a good story, with a good beginning, middle and end.
You have to write a story that makes sense, and write dialogue that is sayable for the actors and helps move the story along, and come up with dialogue that sometimes paraphrases what happened. This film gave me the ability to say things I wanted to say things about what Bob and I grew up in.
Kouguell: Did you consult on the script with Mr. Zellner?
Brown: I sent him scenes and sometimes he would tell me more information and stories because I wasn’t there when these things happened — he’s about 20 years older than I am.
Barry Alexander Brown on set ‘Son of the South’, courtesy of Vertical Entertainment
Kouguell: How did your extensive work as a film editor inform you as a screenwriter?
Brown: With film editing, you’re taught so much about pacing and how to get in and out of scenes. Editing informed a lot of how I wrote. There are so many times a scene would stand alone but more often than not it actually creates a greater sequence of scenes that is all about one thing and what the characters are feeling. I’ve come to understand that one scene doesn’t always stand-alone, it’s a piece of a sequence of scenes.
I’ve worked with very good scripts, and you begin to grasp what writers are doing and also in terms of their language. I remember reading the James Joyce quote about Ulysses – ‘I felt like a thief walking around Dublin stealing people’s lines”. I think it’s good to go around town and listen to the way people talk.’Son of the South’ Script-to-Screen, Courtesy Barry Alexander BrownVolume 90%
Kouguell: There are some humorous moments in the film that offer a good balance with the dramatic events unfolding.
Brown: Although this film is a drama, I still wanted to have humor. Mainly, and why I wanted to use it is because the south is a funny place and they like to play with language. Many films that are set in the south, I don’t recognize these people that are somewhat dour and have no sense of humor; that’s not the south I know.
Two examples of these moments are when Younger asks Bob “Are you really a communist? Say something in communist for me” and Bob’s own repeated line, “I’ll try anything three times”.
Kouguell: Your advice to screenwriters?
Brown: Give every character their own life. Some people have very stylized scripts and sometimes that really works but I don’t think I could do that. I want to understand everybody. There are no small parts. If someone walks into a scene and they have a line or two, you have to know who they are and give them something in that line or two because this is a real person with a real personality.
Also, one of my rules is I should be able to sit down with somebody and tell the story I’m writing but tell it as a story not a script. For me it’s very important that not only is the journey interesting but that it’s going somewhere, so when you get to the end someone isn’t thinking ‘What? That’s it? Why did you tell me the story?’
February 2, 2021 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s Interview: “Acasa, My Home” Documentary Filmmaker Radu Ciorniciuc
Filmmaker Radu Ciorniciuc speaks candidly with Susan Kouguell about his debut feature film, “Acasa, My Home,” and how the importance of building empathy and trust with your subjects can advance the context of your story and provides insight into his writing process with co-writer Lina Vdovîi.
Radu Ciorniciuc’s debut feature film, Acasa, My Home, premiered at the 2020 Sundance Film Festival, where it was honored with a Special Jury Award for Cinematography. The film has played at over 60 festivals around the world and has been nominated for the IDA Documentary Awards, European Film Awards, and Cinema Eye Honors. The film opened in the U.S. on January 15th courtesy of Zeitgeist Films in association with Kino Lorber.
In the wilderness of the Bucharest Delta, an abandoned water reservoir just outside the bustling metropolis, the Enache family lived in perfect harmony with nature for two decades, sleeping in a hut on the lakeshore, catching fish barehanded, and following the rhythm of the seasons. When this area is transformed into a public national park, the nine children and their parents are forced to leave behind their unconventional life and move to the city. This is a compelling tale of an impoverished family living on the fringes of society in Romania, fighting for acceptance and their own version of freedom.
In 2012, Radu Ciorniciuc co-founded the first independent media organization in Romania – Casa Jurnalistului, a community of reporters specializing in in-depth, long-form and multimedia reporting. Since then, he has been working as a long-form writer and undercover investigative reporter. His research focuses on human rights, animal welfare and environmental issues across the globe. His investigative and reporting work was published on most of the major international media organizations in the world – Channel 4 News, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, etc. – and received national and international awards.
His journalistic work was acknowledged by Royal Television Society UK (2014), Amnesty International UK (2014), Harold Wincott Awards for Business, Economic and Financial Journalism (2016), and by other international and national prestigious institutions.
Lina Vdovîi (co-writer) is an award-winning independent long-form reporter covering migration, conflict zones, poverty, education, and social integration. In 2012, she joined the Romanian Centre for Investigative Journalism and, in 2014, became a fellow in the Balkan Fellowship for Journalistic Excellence. In 2014, she was awarded 1st place in the Feature Writing category at Premiile Superscrieri. In 2015, Lina received the distinction Young Journalist of the Year, awarded by Freedom House, Romania. Her work is published in both national outlets and international publications, such as in The Guardian, the EU Observer, Courrier International, Al-Jazeera, Transitions online, RFE/RL, Berlin Policy Journal, and Balkan Insight.
Susan Kouguell: How did you initially meet the Enache family?
Radu Ciorniciuc: It was in 2016 when we heard the Romanian government was going to give the highest environmental protection to a place that was known for the garbage that was stored there, and all the bad urban legends like people get killed in this delta. It was quite a story for me living just two streets away from there.
At first, I just wanted to report on how these authorities were going to make these places accessible to the general public. What they discovered inside was something amazing and truly valuable; a delicate and complex ecosystem where hundreds of species of birds and animals and plants found their home despite it being in one of the most polluted capitals in Europe.
For me, as a reporter, it was quite interesting. With the co-screenwriter of the film, Lina Vdovîi, we started doing interviews and one thing led to another. We met two of the boys, half-naked 400 meters from the city center with their long hair and their funny way of speaking, coming out from the bush. It was quite an image and obviously, we wanted to understand where they came from. They took us to their father, and this is where we learned that the father was quite essential to the whole project and campaign of making this is a nature park. He was working closely with all the researchers, scientists, and other journalists who would come to write or promote the place. He knew everything about the place, he was also acting as a ranger with all the poachers that would come.
We had the privilege on our first encounter to have him see us as another crew of journalists and he took us on this very well-scripted tour of his, explaining the main things of the ecosystem, acting as a modern-day Robinson Crusoe – he was very well aware of his character. Weeks passed and we kept coming back and the father asked: ‘What kind of journalists are you guys? When are you finishing your story?’ We said what’s happening here deserves more time to properly understand the context in which they were living.
Kouguell: You mentioned that in order to create a feeling of familiarity and home with the family, the camera was always shooting at the eye level of the characters and at close distances, especially when highly emotional events were taking place. How were you able to gain the family’s trust?
Ciorniciuc: This trust you build with time. It’s something that is evolving and shifting. As long as there is empathy, understanding and fairness– and this goes with every relationship– I think there are strong bridges to be built.
Kouguell: You co-wrote the film with Lina Vdovîi – please tell me about the writing process.
Ciorniciuc: We both come from a writing background; we both started working in long format, as nonfiction writers. For me it was essential in making this film to always have what I call the bible of the film, which is the treatment, the script. It was very important at different stages of the project so everyone on the project, including myself, knows what’s going on, knows the material we can show, and also clarifies our intention.
Obviously, there are many ways of making a film. Documentary has shifted in form over the years, which is a beautiful thing. There is nothing scripted in the film; I or my crew, never fed them lines.
The truth can have a lot of forms; there is the journalistic truth, artistic truth, and human truth and that can be attained with different forms.
The way we tried to direct some of the scenes, for example, the conflict scenes with the family was that we did our best in becoming mediators between the family members. We were already the people they were turning to when they were having hard times. For example, with the scene with Vali and his father, they had been struggling with each other for about three months and never talked with each other. That was understandable; I come from a patriarchal family and culture and I understand that embracing your vulnerabilities and communicating them can be seen as a sign of weakness. One day I sat with them and said, “I probably won’t be here (with you) in 10 or 20 years and you probably will, and to solve some of these issues you need to talk.” They only needed this to start expressing their frustrations that were there for years.
The way we scripted it was to imagine drawing a red line through 300 hours of footage, which is something that we had with many possibilities of telling the story, including finding an abandoned son of Gica, that exploded our story. We were two years in the making of the film when we followed that storyline. It’s great when you’re making independent documentaries because you have the liberty of following whatever you feel is important.
Writing helps me understand where the end of the film will be. When the written treatment was matching what we had in our rough cuts, that’s when I knew this is what we wanted to say, the things we discovered, what we considered valuable and truthful and worth sharing with the world. This is why I believe in the written process even in the conventional documentary.
Kouguell: You captured people’s intentions yet remained nonjudgmental in conveying the material even when we see how various people are not making the best choices.
Ciorniciuc: You’re a filmmaker and you know that learning the nuance to judgment takes time and education. It’s hard not to judge some of the decisions the father made regarding the children, but understanding that those decisions come from a place that made him feel confident, that the things he was doing were for the best of his loved ones, that for me is context. It took me time to give him a break, and it took me time to accept the fact that those children were deprived of a lot of the opportunities that they should have 400 meters away from them. One judges things on how culture influences you or your family, education, community, and so on.
I think in telling a story like this one it was important for the characters to tell their story, tell their reality in how they see it. I wanted to make a film from within the family rather than about the family. This was obviously tricky because many times we had to fight with our perceptions and our own judgments.
Kouguell: It was powerful to see the footage of Charles, Prince of Wales in your film. It wasn’t just about the celebrity factor, but it put it in the context of how important this land was. How were you able to obtain the footage?
Ciorniciuc: We got it from the official news agency in Romania. We got lucky; if we actually asked the Royal House of Windsor, we would never have gotten it. It mattered to them that our core team were journalists, including myself, and we were known to them and they trusted us.
Kouguell: Has the Enache family seen the film?
Ciorniciuc: Yes. Some parts they enjoyed and some parts they were reminded of the many hard situations they have been through in the last four years. I think it had a very therapeutic effect especially on the mother who told me that after all this they are still together, she can still feel that she has a family, which is something I am very proud of. I was very nervous showing the film to the family but at the end of the day, it worked very well for the family.
Susan Kouguell, award-winning screenwriter and filmmaker, is a senior contributing editor for Script Magazine, and is the author of The Savvy Screenwriter: How to Sell Your Screenplay (and Yourself) Without Selling Out! and Savvy Characters Sell Screenplays!: A comprehensive guide to crafting winning characters with film analyses and screenwriting exercises. As chairperson of Su-City Pictures East, LLC, a motion picture consulting company founded in 1990, Kouguell works as a script doctor and post-production consultant with over 1,000 writers, filmmakers, executives and studios worldwide. Her extensive background includes work as story analyst and story editor for many studios, including Miramax, Paramount, and Viacom, acquisitions consultant for Warner Bros., writer on voice-over narrations for Miramax, associate producer on two features, and over a dozen feature writing assignments for independent companies. Susan teaches screenwriting at SUNY College at Purchase and is a visiting assistant professor at Pratt Institute. Her short films are in the Museum of Modern Art’s permanent collection and archives and were included in the Whitney Museum’s Biennial. Follow Susan on Twitter: @SKouguell, Facebook, and Instagram @slkfilms
December 16, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s interview with “Donut King” Documentary Filmmaker Alice Gu
Director, cinematographer and writer Alice Gu talks about her feature directorial debut, The Donut King, in an insightful discussion that includes DIY filmmaking, discovering the story and establishing truthful relationships with interviewees
Director, cinematographer and writer Alice Gu talks about her feature directorial debut, The Donut King, in an insightful discussion that includes DIY filmmaking, discovering the story and establishing truthful relationships with interviewees.
The Donut King tells the unlikely story of Ngoy, a Cambodian refugee who arrived in America in 1975 with nothing and set out to build a multi-million-dollar empire by baking America’s favorite pastry, the donut. Ngoy soon found himself living a classic rags to riches narrative after sponsoring hundreds of visas for fellow Cambodian immigrants, helping them get on their feet in a new land by teaching them the ways of the donut business and amassing a small personal fortune. By the mid 1990’s, Cambodian-Americans owned nearly 80% of the donut industry as a result of his influence.
The Donut King is a story of tenacity, survival, redemption, and above all else, the power of the American Dream. The Donut King is executive produced by Academy Award-winner Freida Lee Mock and produced by Logan Content in association with Scott Free Productions.
ALICE GU (Director/DP/Writer) A Los Angeles native, Alice began her career as a Director of Photography, working with renowned directors Werner Herzog, Stacy Peralta, and Rory Kennedy, among others. “Take Every Wave: The Life of Laird Hamilton” made its premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in 2017, a documentary film lensed by Gu and directed by Academy Award-nominated director, Rory Kennedy.
KOUGUELL: I understand it was your nanny who introduced you to the concept of “Cambodian donuts” and Ted Ngoy’s story. What grabbed your attention about this story?
GU: When I read about Ted’s story there were several things that grabbed my attention—but not everything made it into the movie due to time, otherwise it would have been three hours long. First, he was a boy born in poverty in Cambodia. Second, in high school, he falls in love with the daughter of a high-ranking official and they have a whole Romeo and Juliet moment where they are forbidden to be together—he actually stabs himself three times and goes on a hunger strike and she takes pills, and they are both almost dead—and finally her parents send them off to live in the countryside.
I was only casually familiar with the atrocities that happened in Cambodia at that time. Ted escaped from that as a refugee penniless and within three years becoming a millionaire and then he lost it all and ended up destitute. His life was so topsy-turvy. Ted’s life read like a movie, like fiction. All of that appealed to me.
Also, the personal component resonated with me. I’m a child of Chinese parents who were forced to leave China with just the clothes on their back.
Ted Ngoy
KOUGUELL: Tell me about the evolution of the project.
GU: This is a case of leap before you look and ignorance is bliss because if you knew how hard it was and all the challenges that would be coming your way, I think it would have been too daunting. Then I thought, I can do this, I’m a DP and I can shoot this, I can get a camera. And then taking a very much DIY approach to it.
KOUGUELL: How long was the shoot?
GU: We shot on and off over the course of eight to ten months. I would have loved to have compressed that, but it was very much DIY—when we had money and time available, we would go back and shoot this project.
KOUGUELL: When you planned out your documentary, did you work from an outline or any source material?
GU: When I met Ted—and that was meeting him over Facebook—we talked several times and he said he just wrote a book, a memoir that’s coming out in a month, and that he would give me a copy. I used that as our bible, a starting point of getting to know characters and getting familiar with everything. But, as we went along and started filming more and meeting more people, it really wasn’t just his book that we followed, we realized there was so much depth and so many other characters and substories we wanted to tell. We used Ted’s memoir as a beginning to research material and as a jumping off point, but the script itself revealed itself to us during the process.
KOUGUELL: How did you establish trust with your subjects, including Ted Ngoy and his family members and colleagues?
GU: That is a product of time. Ted was approaching 80 with nothing else to prove, nowhere to hide. He was a man in his golden years and reflecting on all the good and all the bad. When I approached him about making this documentary, I told him it’s not going to be all the good, it’s going to be warts and all—it’s going to be the good, bad and ugly and are you okay with that, and he said yes.
Over the next 12 months the trust deepened. There was a difference between our first interviews and when we filmed later; his guard was really let down. It was about having honest and true intentions yourself when making a film and that will show and reflect in your relationships and how you approach everything. The other element is persistence. You will get a lot of no’s in the beginning, like from the other characters who are in the film, and eventually after months go by, they say, “Oh, she’s still here? I guess she’s here to stay, and she’s still asking me to be interviewed.” It’s patience, persistence and really having true intentions.,
KOUGUELL: Final words to share about your project?
GU: I love documentaries and I loved them for such a long time. My editor and co-writer Carol Martori is passionate about documentaries and the art form, and we both knew early on this story is so complex and there are so many ways to tell it. There is an American dream story, there’s an immigrant story, a rags-to-riches story, a David-and-Goliath story, and a story about helping other refugees getting their start and rescuing them from refugee camps. There is also what we call the Donut Shop 2.0, the second generation. We have all of these stories, and the bigger immigrant story and history lesson, and we thought, how do we fit this all in here and not be a complete mess. It was a bit daunting.
We took inspiration from narrative. Our approach was to have a narrative structure, a narrative arc. We also wanted to do something fresh and different, and I hope that comes across, as an interesting way to tell the story.
September 6, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on SUSAN’S ‘SCRIPT MAGAZINE’ INTERVIEW: Isabel Sandoval Discusses Her New Film “Lingua Franca”
Susan Kouguell interviews writer/director Isabel Sandoval about her film, “Lingua Franca,” the themes that are important to her, and advice to emerging writers and filmmakers.
Isabel Sandoval as “Olivia” in LINGUA FRANCA – photo courtesy of ARRAY
“Every image or sound is a vessel for emotion: rapture, despair, sensuousness, fury, a combination of these. That makes cinema a kind of legerdemain: the art of sculpting such seemingly artificial elements to create a singular, genuine emotional experience.”
Isabel Sandoval’s Lingua Francamade history at the 2019 Venice International Film Festival Venice Days program as the first film directed and starring an openly trans woman of color to screen in competition. In July 2020, Ava DuVernay’s ARRAY Releasing acquired the film, which debuts on Netflix and opens theatrically in select cities on August 26th.
I recently spoke with Sandoval before the release of her film. Lingua Franca follows an undocumented Filipina trans woman, Olivia (Isabel Sandoval), after she has secured a job as a live-in caregiver for Olga (Lynn Cohen), an elderly Russian woman in Brooklyn’s Brighton Beach neighborhood. Olivia’s main priority is to secure a green card to stay in America. But when she unexpectedly becomes romantically involved with Olga’s adult grandson, Alex (Eamon Farren), issues around identity, civil rights and immigration threaten her very existence.
ABOUT ISABEL SANDOVAL (Director, Writer, Producer, Editor, Actress) An emerging auteur recognized by the Museum of Modern Art as a “rarity among the young generation of Filipino filmmakers for her muted, serene aesthetic”, Isabel Sandoval is a US-based filmmaker who has written and directed three features. Her debut, SEÑORITA (2011), competed in the Concorso Cineasti del presente at the 2011 Locarno FF. Her follow-up, APPARITION (2012), competed in the New Currents section at the 2012 Busan IFF. Considered a modern Philippine classic, APPARITION, is regularly programmed in retrospectives of Filpino cinema. Isabel is currently developing her fourth and most ambitious feature, TROPICAL GOTHIC, a 16th century surrealist drama about the haunting of a Spanish conquistador in the Philippine islands. The project is a 2020 Locarno Open Doors Hub selection.
Kouguell: You came up with the premise for Lingua Franca, which addresses both immigration and the transgender experience, while undergoing gender transition, but the film is not autobiographical. Let’s talk about the process of writing the script.
Sandoval: My theme of choice has been women with secrets, and also women who are disadvantaged, disempowered and forced to confront broader issues. This is true in all my features.
About halfway through writing the script, there were a lot of minorities living in the U.S. who were experiencing these same immigration issues, and I channeled that emotional state in the temperament of the film. It’s kind of an amorphous film; it has elements of drama and shades of a paranoid thriller so that’s how the premise and idea for the film came together. I was channeling that time.
Kouguell: Was it always your intention to also star in the film?
Sandoval: The idea came to me naturally. I like to think of myself as an auteur—when the writer directs, when the protagonist is kind of like an alter ego or double, so to speak. Olivia is a character I’ve known quite well and fondly for almost two years, so that decision to play her came quite organically.
Isabel Sandoval as “Olivia” and Lynn Cohen as “Olga “ in LINGUA FRANCA – photo courtesy of ARRAY
Kouguell: In many of the interviews I have done for this publication, filmmakers tell me that either the script has remained the same from idea stage to the screen, and others say their work makes a complete departure from the script stage to the screen. Did you find that the story changed in any way or is this the film you always intended to make?
Sandoval: I took on the key creative roles—writing, directing, editing and being a producer because I feel like it helped me take my vision of the film from the page to the screen more faithfully as I originally conceived.
As an indie filmmaker, it’s very intuitive to me to be flexible and adaptable. With limited resources you don’t always get the location you want, etc., and there’s a lot of thinking on my feet, and my relationship to a script is a blueprint for a story.
Kouguell: Advice to aspiring writers and filmmakers?
Sandoval: I didn’t go to film school, but I exposed myself to many different kinds of cinema, especially risk-taking cinema that tackles unconventional styles, themes and narratives. My advice is to try to establish your own distinct and singular voice and be willing to take risks—that’s how we grow and evolve as filmmakers and artists.
July 9, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s “Script Magazine” Interview: “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist” Writer, Creator and Executive Producer Austin Winsberg
No two paths to a writing career are the same. Susan Kouguell interviews Austin Winsberg, writer, creator and executive producer of “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist” on breaking in, working in the writers’ room, and growing a tough skin.
It was an absolute delight to chat with Austin Winsberg about his extraordinary career and his show “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist.” If only I could sing on key, I would have broken out into song.
Austin Winsberg
Austin Winsbergis not only the creator and an executive producer of “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist,” but also, as a film writer, Winsberg penned the upcoming “Baby Nurse” (starring Leslie Jones), which is currently in development. On the TV side, Winsberg adapted NBC’s hugely successful live “The Sound of Music” event starring Carrie Underwood. His other credits include “9JKL,” “Gossip Girl,” “Jake in Progress,” “Wedding Album,” “Still Standing” and “Glory Days.” He has written numerous pilots for ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, Showtime, Amazon, Apple and Freeform, as well as movies for New Line, Dreamworks Animation and Warner Bros.
Winsberg is the book writer of the Broadway musical “First Date,” which enjoyed a sold-out run at Seattle’s 5th Ave/ACT Theatres prior to opening at the Longacre Theatre on Broadway in 2013. That show was licensed by Rodgers and Hammerstein and is currently playing around the U.S. and throughout the world. Winsberg graduated with a theater arts degree from Brown University. He is a five-time winner of the Blank Theater Company’s Annual Young Playwright’s Festival in Los Angeles. He continues to work actively with the Blank, directing and mentoring plays by teenage playwrights from all around the country.
About “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist”
Created by Austin Winsberg, the show follows Zoey Clarke (Jane Levy), a whip-smart computer coder forging her way in San Francisco. After an unusual event, Zoey suddenly starts to hear the innermost wants, thoughts and desires of the people around her – her family, co-workers and complete strangers – through popular songs. Based on Austin’s personal experience with his own father who passed away from a rare neurological disease (Progressive Supranuclear Palsy), he created a world in”Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist”where song could be used in lieu of speaking.
Susan Kouguell: Let’s start with your interesting career trajectory.
Austin Winsberg: My career started when I was 23. I’m from Los Angeles and after college I worked at New Line. I spent a year in development where I made a lot of connections with agents and managers because my boss had lots of scripts coming in. Then, I convinced Adam Goldberg to partner up. I met Adam (“The Goldbergs” creator) at Stagedoor Manor – who is a child prodigy playwright; he had written 70 or 80 different plays and I started reading them and then I started writing plays, which won five awards.
After a year working at New Line, Adam and I became writing partners, and we got staffed on “Glory Days”; Kevin Williamson created the show. We then wrote on “Still Standing,” and between that first and second year I created the concept of “Jake in Progress” which ran for two seasons. I went from being story editor to co-showrunner on that series at age 26-27. It was trial by fire.
After that my career had been writing pilots and on occasion writing for “Gossip Girl,” “9JKL,” and also “Sound of Music Live.” I sold a lot of movies, a good portion of that time had been spent selling a lot that hadn’t been made. I would sell big network pilots and they would never make it to the one-yard mark. It was the definition of insanity. Miraculously “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist” came along.
Kouguell: How did you make the transition from theater to television?
Winsberg: I was a theater major in college. I made it from theater to television and back to theater again. The transition back to theater came out of pilots I had written that hadn’t been made. So much of what I like to do is collaborating with actors. I have two friends who are songwriters and we thought we should write a musical with the intent of putting it on Theatre Row. It was a seven-person musical, “First Date.” We did one 29-hour workshop, we got producers who wanted to do it and then it was produced in Seattle and then Broadway.
Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist – Photo courtesy of NBC
“Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist” Writers’ Room
Kouguell: How do you collaborate in the writers’ room?
Winsberg: In season one, when we were in the actual room itself, we would break up all the stories in the room together. We had big white boards with character arcs, songs we wanted to use and different song ideas, and another board with each character, and included if they were singing one or more songs.
The musical element is a whole other narrative piece of each episode. As we are coming up with a song to include, we also talk about how choreography and dance numbers will work in the episode.
Now that we started writing season two, we are doing it on Zoom and still using white boards. It’s changing the way things get done; not everyone is in the same space.
The show features big, bold musical numbers from a catalog of hit songs. Every musical moment serves a purpose to reveal characters’ inner thoughts and feelings.
Kouguell: Do you and the writers ever create a show around a song?
Winsberg: It’s chicken and the egg. We write on the big white board the character and story arc discussions. For example: in Episode 5, when Simon comes over to Zoey’s apartment, we thought the song “Should I Stay or Should I Go” would be a great song for this character. It touched on certain points that we knew we wanted to build upon.
Usually it comes more organically from building the story first, and then finding the song that goes with it. I have strict rules about it: The songs need to advance the plot, the character, or be funny. We stay true to that.
Kouguell: How does it work with getting the rights to the music? Do you come up with a list and then choose what you’re able to use?
Winsberg: Ourmusic supervisor, Jennifer Ross, who worked on “Empire” and “Smash” – is my partner in crime. The second we think of a song, she’ll reach out and quickly see if we can get it, sometimes by contacting the artist directly. There wasn’t a song we didn’t get. We have a music budget, and because we’re creating our own version of the song, there are two types of song rights, which affects the price of the song.
Adapting from True Stories
Kouguell: This show is inspired by your personal experience with your father’s illness. How do you find objectivity when writing and creating episodes?
Winsberg: Coming from a writer’s perspective – every season is based on something in my own family. Some examples: My dad really asked for lemonade, there was a period of time where he didn’t stop crying, and there were several caregivers.
I would take the essence of the story and what happened to him and apply it. I would ask myself, what are the ways to tell that story that are inspired by the memories and experience we had, and what is right for the story. There is a separation there; taking the essence of what happened with my family and how to dramatize it that feels right for the show.
I draw from my own experiences, as well as consider what makes a good story. Certain things I felt strongly about, and it felt authentic. It was also about being able to understand what happened, incorporate what was appropriate, and use creative license.
My most favorite things in the show have not been true to my own life. There are aspects of Maggie that are based on my mother that I created that felt true to her. It’s important to understand the creative separation and not being shut off to ideas in the writers’ room and use these ideas to enhance and enrich the show.
In the process of building the show, I try to compartmentalize. On set with Peter Gallagher, who plays the father, sometimes I couldn’t always compartmentalize. I felt we were being authentic to my father and there were moments where it would be therapeutic and moments it was really hard.
Developing a Tough Skin While Surviving the Whims of the Industry
Winsberg: I spent many years waiting for my first pilot to air. It is a journey; there is something about the whims of the industry.
For me, the ideas of perseverance and to keep writing were important because you never know which project is going to connect. Some of it is timing and luck. And hours of work. And a tough skin. I remember many times when I would read pilots that were bad and wonder why did they get picked up?! I would get depressed about it. I got better over the years to not personalize it so much. For me, it was important to work on several things at once.
Kouguell: Your closing thoughts about your journey thus far with “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist”?
Winsberg: What I could not anticipate was the emotional impact and the huge outpouring of texts and emails from people reaching out to me during and after the show who had the disease, or people who had lost loved ones (due to COVID), and shared their grief.
I didn’t expect this connectivity. Their stories are so emotional and personal. When I created “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist,” I just wanted to write something personal, and I found the more specific, the more universal it becomes.
Season 1 of “Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist” is currently streaming on NBCUniversal’s new streaming service Peacock, the NBC App and HULU. The show has recently been renewed for a second season.
Susan Kouguell speaks with Anne McCabe ACE, editor of “A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood,” who started as an Apprentice Editor in the cutting rooms of Woody Allen, Brian de Palma and Sidney Lumet.
NOV 28, 2019
About A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood
Tom Hanks portrays Mister Rogers in A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, a timely story of kindness triumphing over cynicism, based on the true story of a real-life friendship between Fred Rogers and journalist Tom Junod. After a jaded magazine writer (Emmy-winner Matthew Rhys) is assigned a profile of Fred Rogers, he overcomes his skepticism, learning about kindness, love and forgiveness from America’s most beloved neighbor.
Interview with Editor Anne McCabe
It was wonderful to chat again with Anne McCabe ACE, editor, for this publication. Our first interview centered on her editing work on the award-winning and Oscar-nominated Can You Ever Forgive Me.
McCabe started as an Apprentice Editor in the cutting rooms of Woody Allen, Brian de Palma and Sidney Lumet. She collaborated with Director Greg Mottola on several projects, including The Daytrippers, Adventureland and the award-winning pilot for HBO’s Newsroom. She also worked closely with Kenneth Lonergan on the Academy Award-nominated film You Can Count On Me, and Margaret. Her television credits include Nurse Jackie, Damages, Younger and Succession. Navigating both drama and comedy, she cut Chris Rock’s acclaimed movie Top Five.
We began this interview talking about a Facebook post I read about A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood that stated: Check your cynicism at the door.
McCabe: We all felt the same way. I watched Mr Rogers Neighborhood as a kid, and I was drawn to it but I thought it was so hokey, and when I was older I thought, I really don’t need this kind of show anymore. But then you realize you don’t really understand what Mister Rogers is doing; he’s introducing all these different types of people. Lloyd is that type of character who’s cynical.
When cutting the movie, I put myself in Lloyd’s shoes, but he does get won over. Lloyd’s trying to get dirt on Mister Rogers, but he starts getting under Lloyd’s skin, and you also realize that Mister Rogers was a complicated human being. But there is no dirt, He’s a person with his own struggles. It’s hard to talk about these difficult subjects and feelings and emotions, and what it’s like to be a parent. Working on the movie, we were all going through things. I’m a parent, Marielle (Heller) is also a parent and while we were cutting, we were asking ourselves, how does this make us feel, and looking through that lens while we were editing.
Tom Hanks and Matthew Rhys – Photo by Sony Pictures
Kouguell: This is the second feature you worked on with director Marielle Heller, The first film,Can You Ever Forgive Me? (centering on the writer Lee Israel) was also based on, or inspired by, actual events.
McCabe: Both films are about an odd friendship about one person who is comfortable in their skin and one who is not, but besides that, Lee and Jack (in Can You Ever Forgive Me?) and Mister Rogers and Lloyd could not be more different characters.
With A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood we felt a huge responsibility to the original television show, so there was a whole other level involved. We did tons of research, we looked at all the old shows, and books. The two films have a different tone.
Kouguell: These two projects happened so close together, which is quite an achievement.
McCabe: As Can You Ever Forgive Me? was finishing up, Marielle told me about this script she was working on, and I was thrilled at the chance to work with her again. The funny thing is that in between the two movies I worked on Succession, which couldn’t be more different than A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood so there was a huge contrast between the two projects. Often I work on comedies and things like that so this movie was very special for me to work on.
Kouguell: How has your collaboration with Heller evolved over this time?
McCabe; Working with her a second time was great because we have a shorthand, You achieve a trust especially when you’ve worked together prior on a movie you’re proud of. You trust each other more and you can be more open. We are very comfortable with each other, and we have a very creative cutting room, bouncing ideas off each other.
Kouguell: The film was shot on the same stage with the same camera that filmed the original Mister Rogers Neighborhood series. Were there specific editing choices you made to capture the original series?
McCabe: Yes, one was the rhythm. Mister Rogers Neighborhood is so not slick. Like when Mr. Rogers opens the doors to reveal the pictures behind them, it’s made of cardboard and paste; he didn’t do things in a kind of slick way, everything was very homemade, The production designer did an amazing job of recreating the original show. And it was the same with the editing style, we knew it shouldn’t be super slick or flashy or smooth. Sometimes we intentionally had types of bumpy cuts and the way that it was shot wasn’t high tech. We imitated that style of editing.
Kouguell: Mister Rogers had a distinct speaking rhythm, which is captured in the editing with the slow speaking style yet the film never felt slow.
McCabe: Tom Hanks and Matthew Rhys did an incredible job. There was tons of fantastic material, and a lot of sifting through and making sure we were keeping true to the right cadence in the way Mister Rogers spoke. It’s not a quick film in the way it’s edited, but you needed to feel that focus at all times. As usual, the first cut was a good hour longer than the movie ended up being, so of course we had to shape the story and the performances and craft the rhythms of the movie.
Kouguell: It never felt slow, and I’m a very impatient person.
McCabe: (laughing) So am I. I worked a lot in comedy, and I had to shift my perspective. The film is sincere. It’s about emotion and it’s about feelings. There’s humor in the film but it’s not the cynical humor and it’s not a quick joke. It’s more about the building up of the tension between the characters.
Kouguell: What’s next for you?
McCabe: I’m currently working on Landwith Robin Wright who’s directing a feature; it’s about a woman who has PTSD who takes herself off the grid and goes into the wilderness. It’s a beautiful film shot in Canada.
Kouguell: Advice for aspiring editors and filmmakers?
McCabe: It’s incredibly difficult to do, but you need to show your movie to groups of people and not necessarily your friends and family. Be imaginative and open to reinvent what your intention was. You can’t have a good movie without a good script. You can’t have a good movie without good actors. And the edit is another opportunity to get things right and to rethink. Sometimes you have to reimagine the project or start the show or the movie with a completely different scene than what was written originally, or reorder the scenes, or leave the joke out even if you think it’s totally hilarious. In A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood we had to lose things that we really loved because you can’t keep it long — you know that expression: kill your darlings.
June 30, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s “Script Magazine” article: Top 10 Tips on Writing Dynamic Dialogue
Film executives, agents, directors, producers, and all those reading your script demand that your characters “speak” to them. Susan Kouguell shares her top 10 tips for writing dynamic dialogue.
Film industry folks actually do give a damn about your dialogue and so should you. (And you thought I was going to say: Who else but Rhett Butler in Gone with the Wind could have said this memorable line?!)
Characters’ voices must be distinct and not interchangeable with other characters. Readers must be able to identify who is speaking without needing to look at character headings. Always make every word count; sometimes less is more and the less said can prove more poignant.
Film executives, agents, directors, producers, and all those reading your script demand that your characters “speak” to them. (Meaning, the dialogue must ring true and be distinct to your characters.)
Remember, as Jake La Motta (Raging Bull) said: “I’m da boss, I’m da boss, I’m da boss, I’m da boss, I’m da boss…” (Film industry folks are the boss because they have the power to greenlight or reject your script.)
Subtext
I’m sure many of you have read about the importance of subtext in scripts, but what does that really mean to you? Using subtext serves as a way to convey characters’ intentions without hitting the audience over the head. In dialogue, for example, a character says one thing, but there’s an underlying meaning in what she’s saying.
In writer and director Joseph L. Mankiewicz’s All About Eve, Dewitt says to Margo, “Dear Margo. You were an unforgettable Peter Pan. You must play it again soon.” The subtext addresses Margo’s blatant obsession and fear of aging. (Ageism is also one theme of this film.)
In Lady Bird (written and directed by Greta Gerwig), when Kyle picks Lady Bird up for prom by honking, Lady Bird’s father calmly and without judgment asks his daughter: “You aren’t gonna get in a car with a guy who honks, are you?”
Ten Top Tips to Writing Good Dialogue
1. Dialogue must clearly convey emotions, attitudes, strengths, vulnerabilities, goals, and so on, while revealing the details of your plot and advancing your narrative.
2. Every word of dialogue must be true to your character. Always consider your characters’ behaviors and motivations when they speak.
3. Consider silences and pauses your characters might use, or another character’s interruptions, to further convey tensions, actions, moods, and emotions.
4. In real life, most people do not always speak with flawless grammar in complete, formal sentences. Dialogue must not sound wooden or stilted.
5. To make your characters’ dialogue more identifiable consider using contractions, colloquialisms, slang, and so on, when true to your characters.
6. Characters can speak in verbal shorthand, such as family members and best friends.
7. Keep in mind how your characters listen or don’t listen to each other and respond or don’t respond to each other.
8. Always research your topics thoroughly so if your character is speaking about legal issues for example, you are accurate. The same is true when writing a period film; do your research so your characters’ dialogue is historically accurate.
9. Watch out for on-the-nose dialogue. People don’t always say exactly what’s on their mind or say what they mean and neither should your characters.
10. Writing character biographies in the first person (in their voices) for all of your characters will help to hone in on their specific word choices and language usages, such as slang, speech patterns, and rhythms.
Now, imagine yourself standing in a trench coat in a black-and-white film, talking to film industry folks and hearing Rick’s voice (from Casablanca) in your head saying: “Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.” But this time, it will be the beginning of a beautiful work relationship when you write a script with sparkling dialogue that film executives will champion to get onto the silver screen.
June 30, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s “Script Magazine” article: Why and How to Write a Screenplay Treatment
Susan Kouguell explains what a screenplay treatment is, why you might need it to pitch your screenplay, and the do’s and don’ts of creating a treatment.
As chairperson of my motion picture company Su-City Pictures East, LLC, since 1990, I have worked as a script consultant and screenplay doctor for the major studios, as well as independent film companies. The film industry has changed since the burgeoning of independent films, garnering well-deserved attention, and the growth of streaming platforms, offering screenwriters more opportunities to get their movies made.
What hasn’t changed?
You still need to write a brilliant script.
What does this all have to do with writing a treatment?
It means that you must be prepared in the event that a treatment is requested of you by a film executive, producer or director.
Fine. But what does that really mean for you?
Let’s start with defining what exactly is a treatment.
What is a treatment?
Like so many elements in the screenwriting and filmmaking process, there are no hard and fast rules, but here we go:
A treatment is a detailed overview of a screenplay or script idea written in prose form that is used as a marketing tool for both spec and for-hire screenwriters to sell their project. It is sometimes referred to as a written pitch.
Producers, studios, and/or production companies usually request treatments after you pitch a project idea to them. They will then tell you how many pages to make your treatment. The average length of a treatment is usually between ten and thirty pages, but a treatment can also be as short as one page.
I know what you’re thinking. The treatment sounds like a synopsis. Is it?
Although a treatment and a synopsis are both considered marketing tools to sell your script or script idea, they are not the same. A treatment is a more comprehensive and detailed overview, while a synopsis is generally one page and includes only the very broad strokes of the main plot of your script.
There are varying opinions as to why you should write a treatment or not write one, but having one ready to submit can increase your chances of getting noticed.
Executives, producers, and companies have enormous amounts of material to plow through, so reading a treatment as opposed to a screenplay takes less time. Keep in mind that if you write a treatment for the purpose of pitching it to a company without writing the script, it may lessen your chances of being hired.
It’s not really necessary to write a treatment unless it assists you in fleshing out your ideas and developing your screenplay. Many writers write treatments solely for their own purposes and, like an executive, use their treatments to determine what’s working and what’s not in their scripts.
Studios, production companies and/or industry folks might request you submit a treatment to them after you pitch an idea and they are interested in your project. They will tell you approximately how many pages to write for the treatment.
A treatment that is written for submission to a company must clearly reflect your talent as a writer. Executives are looking for unique and marketable subject matter that an audience can relate to so they can sell it!
Treatments are evaluated on several levels: Is this a good, marketable story? Does the writer have the talent and ability to translate this into a great screenplay?
Executives and producers use treatments as both a selling tool to get your movie made and as a way to identify story, characters, and structural strengths and weaknesses.
Whether you write a treatment based on your original idea, an adaptation of a novel, or true story, the reader will evaluate your ability to dramatize the project into a riveting story complete with captivating characters and a solid structure.
Like a screenplay, your treatment must immediately grab the reader’s attention. It must have energy and follow the conventions of the genre. The reader must get a vivid sense of your story: What the world looks like and how it feels. Use visual imagery to describe your settings and time periods. Distinguish your characters so the reader has a clear understanding of who they are (such as profession or personality) and what motivates their actions.
Readers’ standard questions are: “What sets your story apart from others about the same subject? What makes both your story and your approach unique?”
Your plot must continue to build momentum from page one line one right through to the very last sentence. Your treatment must feel immediate to the reader; each event about to unfold must create interest and excitement.
Follow your protagonist’s journey. Clearly describe your characters and their arcs, their motivations for their actions, and the obstacles they must overcome. The story’s point of view must be clear so the reader knows whose story you’re telling. Your treatment must highlight the main plot points, your major characters, and your turning points.
Formatting Your Treatment
As opposed to a screenplay, there is no specific industry format for a treatment. However, there are some basic guidelines to follow:
● Write your treatment in block paragraph form, that is, without using indentations. Skipping a space between paragraphs.
● Suggested fonts are: Courier New 12 or Times New Roman 12.
● Using separate Act 1, Act 2, and Act 3 headings to delineate each act is recommended.
Your Treatment Must:
● Excite the reader to want to read your screenplay;
● Be a clear and accurate reflection of your screenplay (if you’ve already written it);
● Illustrate your hook—what makes this different from other stories about the same subject matter;
● Be easy, interesting, and enjoyable to read;
● Contain short rather than long paragraphs;
● Be written in visual prose;
● Be written in the present tense;
● Have precise and simple sentences, since each word counts;
● Have a strong opening to hook the reader;
● Have a compelling and satisfying climax;
● Have a clear structure;
● Establish what’s at stake in your story;
● Have an intriguing and empathetic protagonist the reader will root for;
● Follow your protagonist’s journey and arc;
● Include the central conflict and obstacles your protagonist must overcome;
● Establish your antagonist and his or her goals;
● Include the main and supporting characters;
● Include the major plot points and turning points;
● Illustrate action and description;
● Include minimal or no back story;
● Include snippets of dialogue, using quotation marks, but only to illustrate a poignant or critical moment that further defines the character and/or story.
Your Treatment Must Not:
● Use screenplay format;
● Use flowery language;
● Include unnecessary details;
● Include author’s editorial comments;
● Include characters’ inner thoughts;
● Include phrases like “It’s a story about….” or “What happens next is…” Just tell the story.
Have a trusted friend, colleague, or consultant read your treatment prior to submitting it film industry folks, to make sure that it’s an attention-grabbing and interesting read—with no typos or grammatical errors. Register your treatment with the Writers Guild of America (WGA) prior to submitting it to companies for consideration.
June 29, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s “Script Magazine” article: Why Your Script is Getting Rejected
Why Your Screenplay is Getting Rejected – Top Ten Screenwriting Pet Peeves
Tired of getting rejected? Susan Kouguell shares the top screenwriting pet peeves that, if avoided, will help get you from the “pass” to the “consider” pile.
Let’s face it. Rejection is tough. Especially when you’ve poured your heart and soul into writing and rewriting. Maybe you’ve written your script in weeks. Or months. Or years.
The time you’ve spent writing is no measure of your talent or commitment to your craft.
There are many possible scenarios as to why your script is getting rejected by film industry folks. Your script might not be a match for a company. They’re not looking for your type of story right now. What was IN last year is OUT this year. Or, the genre is no longer what they’re seeking. Or now they’re only producing low-budget and not medium-budget projects. Or your script is not a fit for what the producer or director is seeking at that very moment.
It’s enough to give screenwriters whiplash!
We all know that sometimes it’s just a matter of luck and your script lands in the right hands at the right time. But sometimes, well, very often, if not most of the time, it’s because screenwriters are rushing to submit their scripts and they make some careless mistakes.
Here are ten universal pet peeves from film industry executives and story analysts, with whom I have interviewed for various screenwriting publications, including this one, and for my book The Savvy Screenwriter: How to Sell Your Screenplay (and Yourself) Without Selling Out! This list is in no particular order – however I do admit, as a screenplay consultant and professor, I do share all these pet peeves with my colleagues.
1. Incorrect industry formatting demonstrates that the screenwriter is an amateur, and is not respecting the reader’s time.
2. Inclusion of camera angles. Directors do not want to be told how to shoot their movie.
3. Too many genres in one script, or the screenwriter doesn’t know what the genre really is, or doesn’t understand the conventions of the genre.
4. Action paragraphs that read like a novel and/or telegraph what’s about to be revealed in dialogue.
5. Dialogue that contains heavy-handed exposition and/or over-explains information about the back-story.
6. Characters who don’t have distinct personalities and are (unintentionally) interchangeable or don’t serve a purpose in the plot.
7. Lack of a solid structure; this includes rambling, unnecessary scenes and uneven pacing.
8. The inclusion of so many plots and/or subplots that it’s not only impossible to figure out what the story is really about, but it’s obvious the screenwriter doesn’t know or trust the actual plot.
9. Overuse and/or unnecessary usage of voiceovers, dream sequences, and flashbacks. This is a red flag for story analysts.
10. Sloppiness! Typos, grammatical errors, and missing pages. Proofread! Better yet, have someone else proofread your script.
Final words of advice: Follow these tips so it’s not just a matter of luck, but a matter of taking your time and submitting your best work.
June 26, 2020 / sucity / Comments Off on Susan’s Interview with “Never Have I Ever” Director Kabir Akhtar for “Script Magazine”
For Script Magazine: Susan Kouguell interviews Kabir Akhtar, director of “Never Have I Ever,” sharing his experiences working with Mindy Kaling and helping to tell the story of a first generation Indian American teenager, a story he relates to personally.
From our respective homes, on opposite coasts of the country, Kabir Akhtar and I social-distanced, to chat by phone to discuss his work as an Emmy award-winning director-editor and his current project on the hit Netflix series Never Have I Ever.
Kabir Akhtar
Kabir Akhtar’s Career Trajectory – From Editor to Producer and Director
Kabir Akhtar, ACE is an Emmy-winning director-editor whose work includes The Academy Awards, Arrested Development, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, BH 90210, and Unsolved Mysteries. A three-time Emmy nominee, Kabir won the award in 2016 for editing the pilot of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, becoming the first person of color to win in the category.
He earned additional Emmy nominations for his work on Billy Crystal’s most recent opening film for the Oscars, and on Arrested Development; he was the first person to be nominated for comedy editing on any streaming platform. Kabir has also been nominated twice at the ACE Eddie Awards. He has edited ten pilots which were greenlit to series, and has directed the pilot episodes of two series: 8th & Ocean for MTV, and the relaunched edition of Unsolved Mysteries. Kabir has served as Co-Chair of the Asian-American Committee at the DGA, and as a Peer Group Executive Committee member at the Television Academy. He has been a featured speaker at many industry events and festivals, including SXSW.
Kabir worked on all 62 episodes of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, rising from editor to director/producer by the time the series ended. Kabir directed 12 episodes of TV last year, including the season finales of the critically acclaimed series Grown-ish and High School Musical: The Musical: The Series. His work in 2020 includes episodes of the Unicorn for CBS in addition to Never Have I Ever.
With a special passion for musical projects, Kabir has directed 30 music videos with a combined 13 million YouTube views, as well as comedy segments of the Academy Awards and the Primetime Emmy Awards.
Kabir Akhtar shares his experiences working with Mindy Kaling and helping to tell the story of a first generation Indian American teenager, a story he relates to personally.
Kouguell: How did you get involved with “Never Have I Ever”?
Akhtar: Knowing this story so well as a first generation kid, I knew I would love to be involved with it. I think a lot of times when you’re trying to get connected to a project it’s so difficult, but this was a case where I told my reps and they waved their magic wand, and the next thing I knew… it happened. Having the opportunity to be part of the team is extremely rewarding.
Kouguell: What was most exciting for you about this project?
Akhtar Working with Mindy Kaling. And telling a story about a first generation brown teenager—I know that story very well. I had never seen that on television anywhere, certainly not when I was growing up. I can definitely relate to that story.
Kouguell: Did you work with Mindy Kaling before?
Akhtar: I didn’t know Mindy before Never Have I Ever but I had seen her work.
Mindy Kaling was great to work with. Very supportive, very cool, and genuine. We worked together mostly in prep, and had discussions with Lang Fisher, co-creator of the show. It was awesome to work with them.
Kouguell: Let’s talk about Indian-American representation, on and behind the camera.
Akhtar: Growing up in the 1980s there were never brown people on TV except the people with heavy accents or the nutty next door neighbor, which eventually gave way to brown people playing terrorists. The opportunity of telling the story of a fully realized high schooler, searching for her own identity and to do so in a fun way, was very important to me.
There are very few South Asian American directors in town. Most of us know each other. I thought it would be fun to start an award show for brown people, (laughs) but the same four people would be nominated every year. Seriously, the pool is expanding now, which is great.
Kouguell: Being a first generation American myself, who is now decades away from living the horrors of being in high school, I found there was a universality that I could relate to in this series.
Akhtar: I’m blown away by the response to the show and the ability of making a show about these themes. Ultimately we were all in high school, and it is very relatable.
Credit: LARA SOLANKI/NETFLIX
“Never Have I Ever” Episodes 5 and 6
Akhtar: The two episodes I directed are numbers 5 and 6. They’re a little unusual for the series since they cover basically the same period of time, Normal episodes focus on Devi, the main character, but Episode 6 revisits the same time period as Episode 5 from a different character’s point of view, with a different visual style and different narrator, and so on. It was very fun to design those episodes to fit together.
About Episodes 5 and 6
…started a nuclear war (Season 1, Episode 5)
Devi allows rumors about her and Paxton to swirl during an overnight school trip. Fabiola opens up to Eleanor, who gets upsetting news about her mother.
…been the loneliest boy in the world (Season 1, Episode 6)
With absentee parents, a shallow girlfriend and no one to hang out with, Ben Gross is lonelier than ever, until an unlikely invitation offers some hope.
(This is the one from Ben’s perspective, narrated by Andy Samberg.)
Kouguell: Although these two episodes take place at the same time but from two different character’s points of view, you incorporated a unique visual style for these episodes to fit together, yet stand apart.
Akhtar: That type of parallel storytelling I love and I got lucky to work on that structure again. When I edited season 4 of Arrested Development, there was something similar with each episode following a character through the same time period; I was the supervising editor of that season, and it was my job to make sure the pieces fit together in a way that felt real.
In Never Have I Ever it was fun to construct that world, and have nods from one episode to the other. In Episode 6, the Ben episode, the moment Ben sees Davi talking to Paxton down the hall, it was a connection they had in Episode 5. When we were discussing shooting it, it was important to see physical action that was easily understood as happening at the same time, like when Ben sees them far away, the same jacket, and how he looked at the same moment in time.
Seeing the same moments from different POVs. at the end of Episode 5 with the kids coming back from the Model UN field trip, we’re following Davi, and the bus pulls over and she has a flashback and she gets a text on her phone. And in Episode 6, we see that same moment and there’s no flashback ambulance, we just see Ben watching her. The moment is so important to her story, but Ben doesn’t have context to know what’s she’s going through. It was fun to play with all that on set.
Kouguell: Did you collaborate with the writers of these episodes?
Akhtar: I worked very closely with the writers of the episodes. They understand where every detail fits in very well, and I make sure we communicate. The whole process is very collaborative.
The Film School Question
Kouguell: Did you go to film school?
Akhtar: I went to Penn undergrad and University of Miami Film School.
Kouguell: I’m a professor at two different film programs, and many students ask me—without being ironic and fully sincere—if I think film school is worth it. I believe there’s no one-size-fits-all answer; I think it depends on the type of projects you want to make, your creative sensibilities, finances, and so much more. Your thoughts?
Akhtar: Agreed. It depends on what you get out of film school. The first job I had in L.A. came through a connection with my then roommate from film school. We were business partners for a long time and as freelancers we were able to hire each other and that was a big part of my career success.
Final Words
Kouguell: Your advice to aspiring filmmakers?
Akhtar: You have to be persistent. Over ten years ago, I was editing cable reality shows, bad cable reality shows—and fast forward X number of years, and I am an Emmy-winning TV director. That doesn’t happen overnight. You have to remember that careers take a long time to develop and nurture. I talk to a lot of film school classes, and I see who is really passionate about their work and career, and I tell them, it is hard. Be persistent and don’t give up.
