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Susan Kouguell Interviews WICKED Editor Myron Kerstein

December 3, 2024 / / Comments Off on Susan Kouguell Interviews WICKED Editor Myron Kerstein

In this wide-ranging interview for Script Magazine Kerstein talks about his love of editing musicals, his collaborations with director Jon M. Chu, finding the emotion in scenes, and so much more. No doubt, Kerstein’s enthusiasm and passion for films is contagious.

Myron Kerstein, ACE, is an Oscar-nominated and ACE Eddie Award-winning film and TV editor, producer, and director. His credits include tick, tick…BOOM!, In the Heights, Crazy Rich Asians, Garden State, Girls, House of Lies, Little Fockers, Nick and Nora’s Infinite Playlist. Kerstein made his directorial debut in Season 2 of the AppleTV+ drama Home Before Dark.

[L-R] Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba and Ariana Grande as Glinda in Wicked (2024).
[L-R] Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba and Ariana Grande as Glinda in Wicked (2024).Courtesy of Universal Pictures

Kouguell: You’ve edited several movie musicals, including In the Heights and tick tick…BOOM!. (I interviewed screenwriter Steven Levenson for this publication).

Do you have a background in music? What drew you to this genre?

Kerstein: I had a very loose background in music. As a teenager, I played drums and saxophone in bands. I always had a love for music. I remember as a kid watching the Wizard of Oz, of course. The Music Man had a big impression on me as a kid. As a teenager, I loved films like Grease and Purple Rain. I loved movies that had lots of music in them, as well as music videos in the 80s.

When I started getting into the film business, I gravitated to that genre, working on Camp and Hedwig and the Angry Inch as an assistant editor, Garden State, which had a big soundtrack, and Nick and Norah’s Infinite Playlist – all these films were training for me.

When I met Jon Chu he actually wanted to make a musical together. I was really excited because I had put out in the universe that I wanted to work as a sole editor and it came at the right time. Jon and I would say we’ve been training for this all our lives. The truth is, it really did sort of build over the course of 20 years.

Kouguell: Wicked parts one and two are the fifth and sixth projects you worked on with director Jon Chu. Tell me about your collaboration.

Kerstein: It’s been a bromance. I love him like a brother. We found instantaneous connections on how to make films and television. It’s like you’re a kid again having this childhood wonder approach to making things to put out in the world. And, to have a real message and joyful presence in the world.

On Crazy Rich Asians we started to understand each other as creative artists and how we approach things. That trust began quickly and built with that film and with In the Heights it kept building; we were raising each other’s bar. We did that on television as well. Television has a certain speed because of schedules, and you’re thinking on your feet.

It’s been a dream come true. Jon changed my life. In Wicked there are themes about how a person changes you for the good or how they have the handprint on your heart. And he really has. It’s been an incredible journey. I’m really excited that people are responding to this movie because it is all the culmination of the things we’ve done together and with his collaborators Alice Brooks and Chris Scott, it’s an amazing collaboration.

Kouguell: You immersed yourself in Wicked by reading early drafts of parts one and two of the screenplay, watched the stage production on Broadway several times, re-watched the 1939 version of The Wizard of Oz, and read Frank Baum’s source material. How did this influence and inform your editing choices while capturing the spirit of this project?

Kerstein: It’s all about feeling and emotion for me. When I finished the first script I literally cried. I never had a more visceral reaction in my life. And that was very similar to seeing the original stage production. I watched it with my six-year-old son and then rewatched it when Broadway opened again after the pandemic. It was like a rock show, like Beatlemania. What I knew is that in order for the films to work, the audience had to connect emotionally the way I was connecting emotionally to the source material. I was chasing that the entire time, I needed to make sure that whatever my choices were I was listening to my heart.

Myron Kerstein
Myron KersteinCourtesy Myron Kerstein

There were 250 hours of footage of the two movies. I took note of my emotions. It all goes back to how I responded to that source material, and how I can best tell the story dramatically.

Kouguell: The editing was seamless, moving from live-action to visual effects.

Kerstein: Our job as filmmakers is to have a steady grip on the audience, there’s a suspension of disbelief that shouldn’t stop. The second that happens you’ve lost them. Keeping that firm grip and letting the audience know that we have you takes a lot of work between finding the right pace, to letting things breathe, to letting the emotion feel earned by the performances and getting carried away and immersed in that experience.

Kouguell: There is so much thematically going on, as well as shifts and tones and various genres, yet I never felt like I had whiplash.

Kerstein: We’re throwing a lot at you, a lot of tones – comedy, drama, melodrama, action, and horror – but if we keep that firm grip on the storytelling and the emotion, we felt that the audience would go along for the ride.

Kouguell: The screenplay by Winnie Holzman, had the lyrics written into the pages.

Kerstein: It was very helpful because my approach with cutting musicals is not to treat lyrics any different than dialogue so that it feels seamless. The storytelling doesn’t just stop because the characters stop singing. It’s just another way for the characters to express themselves. It was really helpful for me to read along and listen to the Broadway soundtrack, and to read along to understand the storytelling. There’s a lot packed into the lyrics and vocals. Otherwise, I think you’re just like, OK the song starts here and we’ll see you on the other side. Working this way I had a real understanding about what these characters are talking about through these songs, and how it works dramatically in the scenes.

Kerstein: There were a few moments like when Elphaba was flying around that we got to steal another live vocal from another live take, but they’re all doing it live the entire time. They were 100 percent thoroughbred; they are the best singers on the planet.

It was just an abundance of riches having all this dialogue/vocal/singing mixed into one another.

Kouguell: There must have been some challenges cutting the live vocals.

Kerstein: Editing musicals is the hardest genre; nothing compares to cutting live vocals that are, by the way, not always on a musical grid. Jon likes to start and stop songs, and build up anticipation, and mess with audiences’ expectations within a song. He wants to keep it fresh for the audience. He wants to build dramatic moments like he did in “Defying Gravity” and chapter things sometimes to give it a sense of place and setting. It’s super challenging, it’s a lot of balls in the air. I’ll have multiple tracks of different vocals, live piano, instrumental tracks, click tracks. There are lots of things I’m keeping track of and at the same time, I want it to all disappear into whatever the dramatic scene is. 

And on top of that, there is VGX and world building, and CG goats and CG animals. Thank goodness I didn’t have a flying monkey singing too! And then none of this matters, you need to make sure that it all disappears and it becomes this wonderful cinematic experience, and it did.

Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba in Wicked (2024).
Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba in Wicked (2024).Courtesy of Universal Pictures

Kouguell: Let’s talk about the Ozdust ballroom scene.

Kerstein: This is the centerpiece of Wicked and if that didn’t build up the emotion – between Glinda and Elphaba – the loneliness, bullying, and trying to find power and struggling with how Elphaba’s going to someday connect to somebody else in the world, the rest of the movie wouldn’t work.

We had to be really bold in how we picked performances and how we constructed that sequence. Jon shot 9-10 long takes with Cynthia Erivo in the Ozdust ballroom all the way to the end of that scene. Every one of those takes made me cry when I watched the dailies. I had to find that same emotion when I was cutting that sequence and build it out. It had to feel earned otherwise you weren’t going to root for these characters.

Kouguell: Were you editing both parts 1 and 2 at the same time? How did this process work?

Kerstein: For a bit, I was editing both parts at once. They were shooting both films at the same time, it was like block shooting like television. So one day I would get scenes from film one and the next day it would be scenes from film two. At some point, I brought in another editor Tatiana S. Reigel who cut I, Tonya to help me sort through stuff for the second movie. Tatiana is amazing.

Kouguell: Yes she is! I interviewed her several years ago for this publication.

Kerstein: What I love about the two Wicked films, it gives us time to spend with these characters and feel the nuances of how people go through the world together. You can’t have it all happen in one movie; any pace or rhythm would have felt cheapened. I just think that you can’t have that if you stuffed it all into one movie; it would feel like one big musical montage.

Kouguell: I’m really looking forward to seeing the second Wicked film. One year is a long wait!

Kerstein: It’s the longest intermission in the world. It will be worth waiting for. 

Wicked is now out exclusively in Theaters. 

Trailer

Interview with THE POWER OF THE DOG Editor Peter Sciberras

February 5, 2022 / / Comments Off on Interview with THE POWER OF THE DOG Editor Peter Sciberras

Script contributor Susan Kouguell interviews Australian film editor Peter Sciberras about carefully sustaining and building tension throughout the film, while still highlighting the complexity and surprises built into the characters and the story.

SUSAN KOUGUELL

JAN 26, 2022

THE POWER OF THE DOG BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH as PHIL BURBANK in THE POWER OF THE DOG. Cr. KIRSTY GRIFFIN/NETFLIX © 2021 Cross City Films Limited/Courtesy of Netflix.
THE POWER OF THE DOG BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH as PHIL BURBANK in THE POWER OF THE DOG. Cr. KIRSTY GRIFFIN/NETFLIX © 2021 Cross City Films Limited/Courtesy of Netflix.

The multi-award-winning The Power of the Dog now playing on Netflix, centers on charismatic rancher Phil Burbank who inspires fear and awe in those around him. When his brother brings home a new wife and her son, Phil torments them until he finds himself exposed to the possibility of love.

In my interview with Australian film editor Peter Sciberras we talked about carefully sustaining and building tension throughout the film, while still highlighting the complexity and surprises built into the characters and the story.

Peter Sciberras’s feature film debut HAIL (dir. Amiel Courtin-Wilson) was selected to play in competition at the 2011 Venice International Film Festival. That same year, the short film MEATHEAD (dir. Sam Holst) gained selection in the Cannes Film Festival, and was also awarded the Crystal Bear for Best Short Film at the Berlin International Film Festival. Peter’s feature film collaboration with David Michôd has spanned three films: THE ROVER, which premiered at Cannes Film Festival in 2014; WAR MACHINE, starring Brad Pitt, which premiered on Netflix in 2017 and THE KING, which premiered at Venice International Film Festival and was nominated for best editing at the Australian Academy of Cinema and Television in 2019.

Peter Sciberras
Peter Sciberras

KOUGUELL: Tell me about your collaboration with Campion.

SCIBERRAS: I never met Jane before this film. Jane likes to be in the editing room, which I like too. I like to be with directors as much as possible, to get a sense of their particular vision and the atmosphere they invoke. Watching the dailies with Jane, I was soaking in as much as possible — what she liked and what wasn’t there for her. It’s interesting finding how your perspective aligns with the director and making the film they want to make as opposed to what you thought they wanted to make.

That’s the beauty of being in the room together; when you have one idea, and it builds from there in a constant stream of thought. It was such a pleasure to work with someone who is so confident with their vision. And it was incredibly fun.

KOUGUELL: When you signed onto the project had you read the original novel by Thomas Savage?

SCIBERRAS: I had never heard of the novel. I make a point not to know the source material prior to editing, so as not to fill in ideas from the source material. I know what Jane added and her memory of the book and her version of the script.

[Interview with ‘tick, tick…BOOM!’ Screenwriter Steven Levenson]

KOUGUELL: You mentioned solving some of the challenges in the script and changes that were made from the script to the film.

SCIBERRAS: Some characters were introduced quite late and then they disappear for half the script. There was a lot of balancing and identifying how to bring them in and then deciding how much we can get away with. For example, with Phil he’s not in it for a long time and the challenge was keeping that tension building without losing Phil’s presence.

KOUGUELL: The scenes of the vast landscape with the cowboys reminded me, in terms of the tension and atmosphere, of Campion’s film SWEETIE specifically with the landscapes in the outback and the (Australian) cowboys – the jackaroos – dancing.

SCIBERRAS: Jane feels landscape in a particular way; when it comes to filmmaking, she’s very attuned to landscape and very aware of the atmosphere that’s evoked.

With the long panning shot over the hill, we wanted something that had a certain atmosphere and it had a beauty and sensuality with the shapes and shadows hidden in the landscape. Having those conversations with Jane I was very aware of how she sees the world, and how those things permeate every scene, and how attune she is to nature.

KOUGUELL: The tension between Peter and Phil is palpable and continues to escalate as the film unfolds. Let’s talk about that cigarette scene.

SCIBERRAS: The intimate sharing of the rolled cigarette between Peter – who rolls it ‘to be like’ Phil, Kodi (Peter’s character) was so terrific there; the boy’s taken over and the boy is commanding this scene.

KOUGUELL: It was a shift of power between the two characters.

SCIBERRAS: Yes. And cutting to the horses with Peter; the horses had witnessed something we (the audience) hadn’t seen. It was a moment to get a bit more abstract and lyrical and hopefully transport the audience and give the moment some space to live.

[INTERVIEW: ‘Son of the South’ Writer/Director Barry Alexander Brown]

KOUGUELL: The film’s pacing has a distinct rhythm.

SCIBERRAS: As an editor watching dailies and watching performances, you feel the pace the director was working at. It felt really clear to me. The film wanted to be really patient, and I felt that Jane set that up with Ari Wegner the DP. A lot of the pace comes from that, and hopefully the elegance and simplicity.

Weirdly when watching it, I was thinking of Hitchcock; that clear communication of framing, maybe there is something of that. Jane never mentioned that psychological reference with Hitchcock.

KOUGUELL: The film is broken into five chapters. The chapter cards were not in the script.

SCIBERRAS: Right. The chapters were not there to begin with. It was a big part of the edit. With the addition of the chapters, you were left with a question and a cliffhanger moment. In the script it was a fade to black. The chapters allowed us to leave you with a moment of anticipation. It was an interesting shift in the way the film moved, and it allowed us to cut it shorter as opposed to a soft transition.

KOUGUELL: Let’s talk about building tension and intimacy in scenes, and the importance of not being mysterious just to be mysterious in the scenes with Peter and Phil.

SCIBERRAS: All of Peter and Phil’s scenes were fun to cut. Their long lingering looks and a side glance – when you have such great performances it’s exciting. In their scenes, you don’t know what the characters are thinking, and you don’t know where the tension is coming from. Can you trust these people? The ambiguity, tension, and questioning their intentions.

KOUGUELL: Those lingering looks built the tension between these two characters and easily could have been seen as pretentious but it was not.

SCIBERRAS: Jane wants everything to resonate. She has a great compass for that reality, that’s why she can play in that world without it becoming pretentious; it’s very real and raw human. But she has very exciting high concept ideas that she executes and it’s that combination that live in her work and makes her work both accessible and layered. She’s brilliant on that level.

KOUGUELL: Some scenes were omitted and rearranged from the script.

SCIBERRAS: There was a lot of omitting around the start of every chapter.

The first act was tricky, you want to get to the Red Mill quickly where Rose and Peter are introduced, but you need to set up the brothers and how they communicate, and we need to tell backstory. It was a tricky dance to get the right feeling. The brothers have been this way for a really long time and one of them has had enough and he’s not all the way there yet.

The opening of the script opened the same as the book with the castration of the cow. We restructured that scene and put it later when Peter arrives at the ranch. With this cut, it gave it this kind of energy, foreboding and signaling what is going to happen with this boy.

KOUGUELL: The film successfully establishes characters’ relationships and back story without exposition and reveals critical information at just the right moments.

SCIBERRAS: We didn’t want to show too much too quickly. For example, with the magazines in the cubby that are discovered, we wanted the audience to slowly learn what was going on. It felt reductive the way it was originally in the script and we didn’t want the audience to say, that’s why Phil is the way he is.

We also cut the saddle scene. We loved the internal work when Phil’s with his objects of admiration and love, and we wanted to continue that feeling. Jane came up with the idea to have Phil swimming and that was a key restructure, and to have him floating like a crocodile.

KOUGUELL: Advice for our readers?

SCIBERRAS: For editors, understanding the story you’re telling and being free to explore, to create a space with a director to go deep and create a safe place where nothing is off-limits leads to interesting avenues and solutions to problems.

For writers, editors and filmmakers, persistence is everything. It is the key. Good ideas will come but stick to it. Honing intuition is a key thing as well. Allowing yourself to feel the story, and immerse yourself in the characters, understanding the story from the inside and finding the best way to tell it.

The Power of the Dog is now available to watch on Netflix.

Susan’s Interview for ‘Script Magazine’: “A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood” Editor Anne McCabe

July 1, 2020 / / Comments Off on Susan’s Interview for ‘Script Magazine’: “A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood” Editor Anne McCabe

Susan’s Interview for ‘Script Magazine’: “A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood” Editor Anne McCabe

Susan Kouguell speaks with Anne McCabe ACE, editor of “A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood,” who started as an Apprentice Editor in the cutting rooms of Woody Allen, Brian de Palma and Sidney Lumet.

NOV 28, 2019

About A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

Tom Hanks portrays Mister Rogers in A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, a timely story of kindness triumphing over cynicism, based on the true story of a real-life friendship between Fred Rogers and journalist Tom Junod. After a jaded magazine writer (Emmy-winner Matthew Rhys) is assigned a profile of Fred Rogers, he overcomes his skepticism, learning about kindness, love and forgiveness from America’s most beloved neighbor.

Interview with Editor Anne McCabe

anne McCabe

It was wonderful to chat again with Anne McCabe ACE, editor, for this publication. Our first interview centered on her editing work on the award-winning and Oscar-nominated Can You Ever Forgive Me.

McCabe started as an Apprentice Editor in the cutting rooms of Woody Allen, Brian de Palma and Sidney Lumet. She collaborated with Director Greg Mottola on several projects, including The Daytrippers, Adventureland and the award-winning pilot for HBO’s Newsroom. She also worked closely with Kenneth Lonergan on the Academy Award-nominated film You Can Count On Me, and Margaret. Her television credits include Nurse Jackie, Damages, Younger and Succession. Navigating both drama and comedy, she cut Chris Rock’s acclaimed movie Top Five.

We began this interview talking about a Facebook post I read about A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood that stated: Check your cynicism at the door.

McCabe: We all felt the same way. I watched Mr Rogers Neighborhood as a kid, and I was drawn to it but I thought it was so hokey, and when I was older I thought, I really don’t need this kind of show anymore. But then you realize you don’t really understand what Mister Rogers is doing; he’s introducing all these different types of people. Lloyd is that type of character who’s cynical.

When cutting the movie, I put myself in Lloyd’s shoes, but he does get won over. Lloyd’s trying to get dirt on Mister Rogers, but he starts getting under Lloyd’s skin, and you also realize that Mister Rogers was a complicated human being. But there is no dirt, He’s a person with his own struggles. It’s hard to talk about these difficult subjects and feelings and emotions, and what it’s like to be a parent. Working on the movie, we were all going through things. I’m a parent, Marielle (Heller) is also a parent and while we were cutting, we were asking ourselves, how does this make us feel, and looking through that lens while we were editing.

Tom Hanks and Matthew Rhys - Photo by Sony Pictures
Tom Hanks and Matthew Rhys – Photo by Sony Pictures

Kouguell: This is the second feature you worked on with director Marielle Heller, The first film,Can You Ever Forgive Me? (centering on the writer Lee Israel) was also based on, or inspired by, actual events.

McCabe: Both films are about an odd friendship about one person who is comfortable in their skin and one who is not, but besides that, Lee and Jack (in Can You Ever Forgive Me?) and Mister Rogers and Lloyd could not be more different characters.

With A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood we felt a huge responsibility to the original television show, so there was a whole other level involved. We did tons of research, we looked at all the old shows, and books. The two films have a different tone.

Kouguell: These two projects happened so close together, which is quite an achievement.

McCabe: As Can You Ever Forgive Me? was finishing up, Marielle told me about this script she was working on, and I was thrilled at the chance to work with her again. The funny thing is that in between the two movies I worked on Succession, which couldn’t be more different than A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood so there was a huge contrast between the two projects. Often I work on comedies and things like that so this movie was very special for me to work on.

Kouguell: How has your collaboration with Heller evolved over this time?

McCabe; Working with her a second time was great because we have a shorthand, You achieve a trust especially when you’ve worked together prior on a movie you’re proud of. You trust each other more and you can be more open. We are very comfortable with each other, and we have a very creative cutting room, bouncing ideas off each other.

Kouguell: The film was shot on the same stage with the same camera that filmed the original Mister Rogers Neighborhood series. Were there specific editing choices you made to capture the original series?

McCabe: Yes, one was the rhythm. Mister Rogers Neighborhood is so not slick. Like when Mr. Rogers opens the doors to reveal the pictures behind them, it’s made of cardboard and paste; he didn’t do things in a kind of slick way, everything was very homemade, The production designer did an amazing job of recreating the original show. And it was the same with the editing style, we knew it shouldn’t be super slick or flashy or smooth. Sometimes we intentionally had types of bumpy cuts and the way that it was shot wasn’t high tech. We imitated that style of editing.

Kouguell: Mister Rogers had a distinct speaking rhythm, which is captured in the editing with the slow speaking style yet the film never felt slow.

McCabe: Tom Hanks and Matthew Rhys did an incredible job. There was tons of fantastic material, and a lot of sifting through and making sure we were keeping true to the right cadence in the way Mister Rogers spoke. It’s not a quick film in the way it’s edited, but you needed to feel that focus at all times. As usual, the first cut was a good hour longer than the movie ended up being, so of course we had to shape the story and the performances and craft the rhythms of the movie.

Kouguell: It never felt slow, and I’m a very impatient person.

McCabe: (laughing) So am I. I worked a lot in comedy, and I had to shift my perspective. The film is sincere. It’s about emotion and it’s about feelings. There’s humor in the film but it’s not the cynical humor and it’s not a quick joke. It’s more about the building up of the tension between the characters.

Kouguell: What’s next for you?

McCabe: I’m currently working on Land with Robin Wright who’s directing a feature; it’s about a woman who has PTSD who takes herself off the grid and goes into the wilderness. It’s a beautiful film shot in Canada.

Kouguell: Advice for aspiring editors and filmmakers?

McCabe: It’s incredibly difficult to do, but you need to show your movie to groups of people and not necessarily your friends and family. Be imaginative and open to reinvent what your intention was. You can’t have a good movie without a good script. You can’t have a good movie without good actors. And the edit is another opportunity to get things right and to rethink. Sometimes you have to reimagine the project or start the show or the movie with a completely different scene than what was written originally, or reorder the scenes, or leave the joke out even if you think it’s totally hilarious. In A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood we had to lose things that we really loved because you can’t keep it long — you know that expression: kill your darlings.

Visit A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood official site. 

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